Um... Is there CLUG tonight?

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Um... Is there CLUG tonight?

Samba - linux mailing list
All,
  Noticed the mailing list's been particularly quiet since Sunday.
  I'm able to attend BeerSIG and CLUG, if something's happening.

M0les.

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Re: Um... Is there CLUG tonight?

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Miles:

> I'm able to attend BeerSIG and CLUG, if something's happening.

It's a networking talk on packet loss and latency.

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Re: Um... Is there CLUG tonight?

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On 25/05/17 12:59, Miles Goodhew via linux wrote:
> All,
>   Noticed the mailing list's been particularly quiet since Sunday.
>   I'm able to attend BeerSIG and CLUG, if something's happening.
>
> M0les.
>

Yes, we're on:

On 09/05/17 22:39, Steven Hanley via linux wrote:

> All
>
> Seamus offered this talk up for May and it sounds like it will be fun and
> interesting so come and learn/discuss/etc.
>
> See below, 18:00 at Wig and Pen for BeerSig
> 19:00 at CSIT Building ANU - N101 for CLUG.
>
> Canberra Linux Users Group Meeting - 25th May 2017
>  =================================================
>
>  Date:          25th May 2017 (Fourth Thursday of the month)
>
>  =================================================
>
>  Time:         18:00 - 18:55
>
>  Abstract:     It's BeerSIG time!
>                'What's BeerSIG?' I hear you ask! BeerSIG is a social
>                gathering, and an opportunity to get together with
>                like minded people and share a social pint
>                or two before the meeting.
>
>  Location:     Wig and Pen, Llewellyn Hall, Canberra School of Music
>                Look for the table with a stuffed toy penguin
>
>  =================================================
>
>  Time:         19:00 - 21:00 (or when it finishes)
>
> Title:
>
> * An animated explanation of how the packet loss and latency displayed
> in the output of traceroute can cause you to make a false diagnosis.
>
>
> Topics covered:
>
> * Routers and Route Tables
>
> * TTL (Time to Live)
>
> * ICMP Time Exceeded messages
>
> * Traceroute's utilisation of TTL and ICMP Time Exceeded messages to
> determine routing paths
>
> * 3 common types of traceroutes - ICMP, UDP and TCP
>
> * The primary and secondary function of routers
>
> * Effects of router prioritisation on the outputs/reports displayed in
> traceroute tools
>
> * Routing Paths: Symmetric, Asymmetric and Divergent paths
>
> * Effects of Asymmetric and divergent paths on the outputs/reports
> displayed in traceroute tools
>
>
> Session length:
>
> * 45 Minutes
>
>
> Content Format:
>
> * Series of diagrams and animations that illustrate each of the topics
> mentioned above.
>
> Presenter:
>
> * Seamus Murray
>
>  Venue:        Room N101
>                Computer Science and Information Technology Building
>                North Road
>                The Australian National University
>
>                See http://clug.org.au/ for more directions and a map
>
>  Food/drink:   Pizza and soft drink/juice. Come hungry, and bring
>                about $6 to cover the cost of your share if you
>                want some.
>



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Re: Um... Is there CLUG tonight?

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    Well I missed another meeting.

The days, weeks and months are travelling way too fast for me.

Was it a good night, what was discussed ?



At Thursday, 25-05-2017 on 14:18 Bob Edwards via linux wrote:


On 25/05/17 12:59, Miles Goodhew via linux wrote:
> All,
>   Noticed the mailing list's been particularly quiet since Sunday.
>   I'm able to attend BeerSIG and CLUG, if something's happening.
>
> M0les.
>

Yes, we're on:

On 09/05/17 22:39, Steven Hanley via linux wrote:
> All
>
> Seamus offered this talk up for May and it sounds like it will be
fun and
> interesting so come and learn/discuss/etc.
>
> See below, 18:00 at Wig and Pen for BeerSig
> 19:00 at CSIT Building ANU - N101 for CLUG.
>
> Canberra Linux Users Group Meeting - 25th May 2017
>  =================================================
>
>  Date:          25th May 2017 (Fourth Thursday of the
month)
>
>  =================================================
>
>  Time:         18:00 - 18:55
>
>  Abstract:     It's BeerSIG time!
>                'What's BeerSIG?' I hear you ask!
BeerSIG is a social
>                gathering, and an opportunity to get
together with
>                like minded people and share a social
pint
>                or two before the meeting.
>
>  Location:     Wig and Pen, Llewellyn Hall, Canberra School of
Music
>                Look for the table with a stuffed toy
penguin
>
>  =================================================
>
>  Time:         19:00 - 21:00 (or when it finishes)
>
> Title:
>
> * An animated explanation of how the packet loss and latency
displayed

> in the output of traceroute can cause you to make a false diagnosis.
>
>
> Topics covered:
>
> * Routers and Route Tables
>
> * TTL (Time to Live)
>
> * ICMP Time Exceeded messages
>
> * Traceroute's utilisation of TTL and ICMP Time Exceeded messages to
> determine routing paths
>
> * 3 common types of traceroutes - ICMP, UDP and TCP
>
> * The primary and secondary function of routers
>
> * Effects of router prioritisation on the outputs/reports displayed
in

> traceroute tools
>
> * Routing Paths: Symmetric, Asymmetric and Divergent paths
>
> * Effects of Asymmetric and divergent paths on the outputs/reports
> displayed in traceroute tools
>
>
> Session length:
>
> * 45 Minutes
>
>
> Content Format:
>
> * Series of diagrams and animations that illustrate each of the
topics
> mentioned above.
>
> Presenter:
>
> * Seamus Murray
>
>  Venue:        Room N101
>                Computer Science and Information
Technology Building
>                North Road
>                The Australian National University
>
>                See http://clug.org.au/ for more
directions and a map
>
>  Food/drink:   Pizza and soft drink/juice. Come hungry, and
bring
>                about $6 to cover the cost of your
share if you
>                want some.
>



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Re: Um... Is there CLUG tonight?

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On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 6:29 AM, George at Clug via linux <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>     Well I missed another meeting.
>
> The days, weeks and months are travelling way too fast for me.
>
> Was it a good night, what was discussed ?
>

The bit I saw before I had to go and be a taxi was very good. Seamus was
digging into traceroute and what it does and doesn't tell you about what an
IP network is doing.

I hope that the resources from his talk are online somewhere because I
really wish I hadn't missed the rest.

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Re: Um... Is there CLUG tonight?

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On 26/05/17 07:28, Mike Carden via linux wrote:

> On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 6:29 AM, George at Clug via linux <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>     Well I missed another meeting.
>>
>> The days, weeks and months are travelling way too fast for me.
>>
>> Was it a good night, what was discussed ?
>>
>
> The bit I saw before I had to go and be a taxi was very good. Seamus was
> digging into traceroute and what it does and doesn't tell you about what an
> IP network is doing.
>
> I hope that the resources from his talk are online somewhere because I
> really wish I hadn't missed the rest.
>

+1 - Seamus did a great job and his animated diagrams of how traceroute
output can represent many different scenarios were excellent.

Alas, his "slides" (9000 images, apparently, and around 8GB) are not
yet ready to be put on the web.

A huge thanks to him for travelling all the way from Sydney just to
present this talk for us.

One interesting point, early on in his presentation, was around 7
very different traceroute outputs for the same (hypothetical)
destination that were all good and one that may have been good or
bad - this brought home his point quite well, I thought.

He mentioned to me, after dinner, that DigitalOcean and Linode both
have tutorials on traceroute that are worth a read, although the one
I found on DigitalOcean seemed to be making some opposite (and naive)
points to Seamus's talk. For example, Seamus talked down the use of
mtr (My TraceRoute), but the DigitalOcean tutorial talks it up, etc.

cheers,

Bob Edwards.

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Re: Um... Is there CLUG tonight?

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I'm guessing that the Digital Ocean one is this one:

https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-use-traceroute-and-mtr-to-diagnose-network-issues

The Linode one just concentrates on mtr, but does so with a lot more detail
and a lot more discussion of whether things are what they seem in a report.
It's a good read:

https://www.linode.com/docs/networking/diagnostics/diagnosing-network-issues-with-mtr

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Re: Um... Is there CLUG tonight?

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On 26/05/17 10:21, Mike Carden via linux wrote:

> I'm guessing that the Digital Ocean one is this one:
>
> https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-use-traceroute-and-mtr-to-diagnose-network-issues
>
> The Linode one just concentrates on mtr, but does so with a lot more detail
> and a lot more discussion of whether things are what they seem in a report.
> It's a good read:
>
> https://www.linode.com/docs/networking/diagnostics/diagnosing-network-issues-with-mtr
>

Agreed - the Linode one is definitely the one Seamus was endorsing,
now that I have read it.

I think he was just referring to the Digital Ocean one in passing.

cheers,

Bob Edwards.

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Re: Um... Is there CLUG tonight?

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In reply to this post by Samba - linux mailing list
George:

>      Well I missed another meeting.
>
> The days, weeks and months are travelling way too fast for me.
>
> Was it a good night, what was discussed ?

Seamus carefully explained concepts.

Afterwards I ran tracepath against some Aussie Web sites. So I was
surprised to discover that Socialist Alliance and Green Left Weekly--had
their sites located in Tokyo!

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Re: Um... Is there CLUG tonight?

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On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Bryan Kilgallin (iiNet) via linux <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Afterwards I ran tracepath against some Aussie Web sites. So I was
> surprised to discover that Socialist Alliance and Green Left Weekly--had
> their sites located in Tokyo!
>
>
Bryan, what command did you execute that led to that conclusion?

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Re: Um... Is there CLUG tonight?

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Hi Mike:

> Afterwards I ran tracepath against some Aussie Web sites. So I was
> surprised to discover that Socialist Alliance and Green Left
> Weekly--had their sites located in Tokyo!
>
>
>
> Bryan, what command did you execute that led to that conclusion?

First, the following.
{
tracepath socialist-alliance.org
}

Which after some Canberra and Sydney servers, produced this. I would
have looked up say "hkix.net" directly in Firefox, showing that was a
Hong Kong service. Though I wasn't able to connect with "pccwbtn.net"
similarly, as with "139.162.64.17".

{
  7:  btn1-lacp-10g.hkix.net                              130.377ms
asymm  6
  8:  TenGE0-3-0-6.br02.tok02.pccwbtn.net                 182.341ms
asymm 10
  9:  TenGE0-3-0-7.br02.tok02.pccwbtn.net                 183.484ms
asymm  8
10:  linode.be15-10.br02.tok02.pccwbtn.net               183.947ms asymm  9
11:  139.162.64.17                                       183.323ms asymm 10
12:  socialist-alliance.org                              185.423ms reached
}

But freegeoip.net listed for that numerical address, the following.

{
Country Japan
Region Tokyo
City Tokyo

}

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Re: Um... Is there CLUG tonight?

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In reply to this post by Samba - linux mailing list

Here are the sample traceroute outputs that I presented.

Idealistic traceroute (for reference)

10 ms
20 ms
30 ms
40 ms
50 ms
60 ms
70 ms
80 ms
90 ms



Latency that the only present for some of the intermediary routers. Multiple potential causes, including..
Router control plane delays
1 or more long/slow return paths from 1 or more intermediary routers

10 ms 
20 ms 
30 ms 
200 ms 
210 ms 
220 ms 
230 ms 
240 ms 
90 ms 


Packet loss that the only present for some of the intermediary routers. Multiple potential causes, including..
Router control plane no generating the ICMP Time exceeded messages
1 or more return paths from 1 or more intermediary routers causing packet loss
   
10 ms 
20 ms 
30 ms 
*     
*     
*     
*     
80 ms 
90 ms 



In-line latency that continues all the way to the remote destination host

10 ms 
20 ms 
30 ms 
200 ms 
210 ms 
220 ms 
230 ms 
240 ms 
250 ms 


MPLS    ( I'll leave this for those who are interested to investigate them selves )
10 ms   
20 ms   
30 ms   
90 ms   
90 ms   
90 ms   
90 ms   
90 ms   
90 ms   


Multiple potential causes, including..
Firewall on the remote destination host   
Your local firewall/NAT dropping the returned traffic

10 ms 
20 ms 
30 ms 
*     
*     
*     
*     
*     
*     

CheersSeamus Murray      From: Bob Edwards via linux <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Friday, 26 May 2017, 9:59
 Subject: Re: [clug] Um... Is there CLUG tonight?
   
On 26/05/17 07:28, Mike Carden via linux wrote:

> On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 6:29 AM, George at Clug via linux <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>    Well I missed another meeting.
>>
>> The days, weeks and months are travelling way too fast for me.
>>
>> Was it a good night, what was discussed ?
>>
>
> The bit I saw before I had to go and be a taxi was very good. Seamus was
> digging into traceroute and what it does and doesn't tell you about what an
> IP network is doing.
>
> I hope that the resources from his talk are online somewhere because I
> really wish I hadn't missed the rest.
>

+1 - Seamus did a great job and his animated diagrams of how traceroute
output can represent many different scenarios were excellent.

Alas, his "slides" (9000 images, apparently, and around 8GB) are not
yet ready to be put on the web.

A huge thanks to him for travelling all the way from Sydney just to
present this talk for us.

One interesting point, early on in his presentation, was around 7
very different traceroute outputs for the same (hypothetical)
destination that were all good and one that may have been good or
bad - this brought home his point quite well, I thought.

He mentioned to me, after dinner, that DigitalOcean and Linode both
have tutorials on traceroute that are worth a read, although the one
I found on DigitalOcean seemed to be making some opposite (and naive)
points to Seamus's talk. For example, Seamus talked down the use of
mtr (My TraceRoute), but the DigitalOcean tutorial talks it up, etc.

cheers,

Bob Edwards.

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Re: Um... Is there CLUG tonight?

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In reply to this post by Samba - linux mailing list
Mike,

Sorry, but the content is not online at the moment.I currently do not have an ETA for when my website and the content will be back online.

Cheers
Seamus Murray

      From: Mike Carden via linux <[hidden email]>
 To: George at Clug <[hidden email]>
Cc: CLUG List <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Friday, 26 May 2017, 7:29
 Subject: Re: [clug] Um... Is there CLUG tonight?
   
On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 6:29 AM, George at Clug via linux <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>    Well I missed another meeting.
>
> The days, weeks and months are travelling way too fast for me.
>
> Was it a good night, what was discussed ?
>

The bit I saw before I had to go and be a taxi was very good. Seamus was
digging into traceroute and what it does and doesn't tell you about what an
IP network is doing.

I hope that the resources from his talk are online somewhere because I
really wish I hadn't missed the rest.

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Re: Um... Is there CLUG tonight?

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In reply to this post by Samba - linux mailing list

Bryan
If you are interested in using traceroute for its intended purposeof tracing out the route to a remote node.
Then I suggest that you have a look at some of the talks by
Richard A Steenbergen. He goes into quite a bit of detailon how to use the dns names of routers to determine theirlocation and their function.

https://www.nanog.org/meetings/nanog45/presentations/Sunday/RAS_traceroute_N45.pdf
CheersSeamus

      From: Bryan Kilgallin (iiNet) via linux <[hidden email]>
 To: Mike Carden <[hidden email]>
Cc: CLUG List <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Friday, 26 May 2017, 16:08
 Subject: Re: [clug] Um... Is there CLUG tonight?
   
Hi Mike:

> Afterwards I ran tracepath against some Aussie Web sites. So I was
> surprised to discover that Socialist Alliance and Green Left
> Weekly--had their sites located in Tokyo!
>
>
>
> Bryan, what command did you execute that led to that conclusion?

First, the following.
{
tracepath socialist-alliance.org
}

Which after some Canberra and Sydney servers, produced this. I would
have looked up say "hkix.net" directly in Firefox, showing that was a
Hong Kong service. Though I wasn't able to connect with "pccwbtn.net"
similarly, as with "139.162.64.17".

{
  7:  btn1-lacp-10g.hkix.net                              130.377ms
asymm  6
  8:  TenGE0-3-0-6.br02.tok02.pccwbtn.net                182.341ms
asymm 10
  9:  TenGE0-3-0-7.br02.tok02.pccwbtn.net                183.484ms
asymm  8
10:  linode.be15-10.br02.tok02.pccwbtn.net              183.947ms asymm  9
11:  139.162.64.17                                      183.323ms asymm 10
12:  socialist-alliance.org                              185.423ms reached
}

But freegeoip.net listed for that numerical address, the following.

{
Country     Japan
Region     Tokyo
City     Tokyo

}

--
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Re: Um... Is there CLUG tonight?

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Bob,
The main problems I have with MTR are:

* It enables people to easily and continually send multiple packets to the
  control planes of other peoples routers.* It gives people an even more of a false sense (than traceroute)  that they have a full picture of what is going on.* People often misinterpret the packet loss column.
CheersSeamus


      From: Bob Edwards via linux <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Friday, 26 May 2017, 9:59
 Subject: Re: [clug] Um... Is there CLUG tonight?
   
On 26/05/17 07:28, Mike Carden via linux wrote:

> On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 6:29 AM, George at Clug via linux <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>    Well I missed another meeting.
>>
>> The days, weeks and months are travelling way too fast for me.
>>
>> Was it a good night, what was discussed ?
>>
>
> The bit I saw before I had to go and be a taxi was very good. Seamus was
> digging into traceroute and what it does and doesn't tell you about what an
> IP network is doing.
>
> I hope that the resources from his talk are online somewhere because I
> really wish I hadn't missed the rest.
>

+1 - Seamus did a great job and his animated diagrams of how traceroute
output can represent many different scenarios were excellent.

Alas, his "slides" (9000 images, apparently, and around 8GB) are not
yet ready to be put on the web.

A huge thanks to him for travelling all the way from Sydney just to
present this talk for us.

One interesting point, early on in his presentation, was around 7
very different traceroute outputs for the same (hypothetical)
destination that were all good and one that may have been good or
bad - this brought home his point quite well, I thought.

He mentioned to me, after dinner, that DigitalOcean and Linode both
have tutorials on traceroute that are worth a read, although the one
I found on DigitalOcean seemed to be making some opposite (and naive)
points to Seamus's talk. For example, Seamus talked down the use of
mtr (My TraceRoute), but the DigitalOcean tutorial talks it up, etc.

cheers,

Bob Edwards.

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