[Release Planning 3.6] Samba 3.6.6 on Mai 24?

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting Karolin Seeger ([hidden email]):

> I don't think that this is neccessary, because
> a) nobody is reading release notes and

I strongly object to that..:-)

Release Notes are the best helpers for me to decide if I can propose
an update to our stable packages.

Doing the same with Bugzilla is probably possible but is certainly a
giant PITA. And this of course makes me understand why maintaining the
release notes *is* a giant PITA for you, Karolin, of course..:-)

> b) that is what bugzilla is for.
> I have no idea how long the release notes will be if I have to add each
> existing bug. But if all of you agree, I will have to.

At least, having the list of bugs fixed by a given release in the
release notes would be helpful.

[Andrew Bartlett]

On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 12:23 +0200, Volker Lendecke wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 09:03:21PM +0200, Karolin Seeger wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 10:06:50AM +1000, Andrew Bartlett wrote:
> > > The problem is, for each of us our pet feature is that certain key
> > > feature :-).  I still hold that 'regression' is the only standard we can
> > > all agree on.
> >
> > I don't agree. I agree that your statement is valid in most cases, but
> > there are some key features that must work IMHO. Maybe we need to write down
> > these functionalities. Btw, when XP clients cannot be joined, it's a
> > regression.
> >
> > I would really like to hear Volker's and Jeremy's point of view regarding
> > the regressions. In the past, I had several times the impression that we
> > do need blocker bugs (and that the use of them was not abused).
> > Maybe you guys would like to comment.
>
> While I haven't read this whole thread in entirety, Michael
> has asked me to respond to this mail.
>
> I am a big fan of schedule-based releases. Every x weeks we
> ship a new minor release. Period. No exceptions. What is
> ready at week x-1 goes in, what is not ready does not. Even
> if we ship with known bugs, this is better than not shipping
> at all for months. This completely removes the burden to
> make a bug a blocker or not. If we ship with known problems
> it is not *that* bad because we know we will ship in a
> timely fashion later. If a known problem is considered
> severe and is fixed significantly before the next scheduled
> release, we could consider doing a release in between.
>
> Security releases are different. I would say that we can
> ship a release with a known security problem as long as it
> is not public yet. When we go public, it is the #1 reason to
> do an immediate intermediate release.

Volker,

You express the situation and the need for this solution very well.  

Thank you.

+1

Andrew Bartlett

--
Andrew Bartlett                                http://samba.org/~abartlet/
Authentication Developer, Samba Team           http://samba.org

[Karolin Seeger-2]

Hi Christian,

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 07:35:41AM +0200, Christian PERRIER wrote:
> Quoting Karolin Seeger ([hidden email]):
>
> > I don't think that this is neccessary, because
> > a) nobody is reading release notes and
>
> I strongly object to that..:-)
>
> Release Notes are the best helpers for me to decide if I can propose
> an update to our stable packages.

that's what they are for. It's just my impression that administrators
often don't pay attention before updating/upgrading.
 
> Doing the same with Bugzilla is probably possible but is certainly a
> giant PITA. And this of course makes me understand why maintaining the
> release notes *is* a giant PITA for you, Karolin, of course..:-)

Listing all open bugs in the release notes is not an option for me.
If anyone is willing to do that, please feel free.
That would take *a lot* of time and validation work.
 
> > b) that is what bugzilla is for.
> > I have no idea how long the release notes will be if I have to add each
> > existing bug. But if all of you agree, I will have to.
>
> At least, having the list of bugs fixed by a given release in the
> release notes would be helpful.

I don't get what is missing right now.
As I have already pointed out at this year's SambaXP, the release notes
contain all older release note of the branch. So you can track down which
bug was fixed in which release. Please clarify what should be added.

Thanks!

Karolin

--
Samba http://www.samba.org
SerNet http://www.sernet.de
sambaXP http://www.sambaxp.org

[Luk Claes]

Hi Karolin

On 06/22/2012 07:45 PM, Karolin Seeger wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 07:35:41AM +0200, Christian PERRIER wrote:
>> Quoting Karolin Seeger ([hidden email]):
>>
>>> I don't think that this is neccessary, because
>>> a) nobody is reading release notes and
>>
>> I strongly object to that..:-)
>>
>> Release Notes are the best helpers for me to decide if I can propose
>> an update to our stable packages.
>
> that's what they are for. It's just my impression that administrators
> often don't pay attention before updating/upgrading.
>  
>> Doing the same with Bugzilla is probably possible but is certainly a
>> giant PITA. And this of course makes me understand why maintaining the
>> release notes *is* a giant PITA for you, Karolin, of course..:-)
>
> Listing all open bugs in the release notes is not an option for me.
> If anyone is willing to do that, please feel free.
> That would take *a lot* of time and validation work.
>  
>>> b) that is what bugzilla is for.
>>> I have no idea how long the release notes will be if I have to add each
>>> existing bug. But if all of you agree, I will have to.
>>
>> At least, having the list of bugs fixed by a given release in the
>> release notes would be helpful.
>
> I don't get what is missing right now.
> As I have already pointed out at this year's SambaXP, the release notes
> contain all older release note of the branch. So you can track down which
> bug was fixed in which release. Please clarify what should be added.

I don't think anything is missing for Christian's use case. Though it
would be a shame if the info about the fixed bugs would go away. But
that's not what others are implying I guess.

What could be useful to add is a short list of very important bugs that
were considered, but were in the end not waited for that particular release.

Cheers

Luk

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting Karolin Seeger ([hidden email]):

> > > b) that is what bugzilla is for.
> > > I have no idea how long the release notes will be if I have to add each
> > > existing bug. But if all of you agree, I will have to.
> >
> > At least, having the list of bugs fixed by a given release in the
> > release notes would be helpful.
>
> I don't get what is missing right now.
> As I have already pointed out at this year's SambaXP, the release notes
> contain all older release note of the branch. So you can track down which
> bug was fixed in which release. Please clarify what should be added.

My understanding was that this part of the discussion was about
listing *all* bugs fixed in a said release (since the former one) or
only some of them.


What I find helpful is having such a list of all Bugzilla bugs fixed
by X.Y.Z release sicne X.Y.Z-1. Only bug numbers is enough,
indeed. And details could be given for those that are "important"
enough (which is the biggest part of the work, I guess as one needs to
cook up a summary for each).

If release notes *already* do that, then fine and I don't need
anything more.

And, yes, cumulative release notes are also very helpful
(particularly, indeed, if they list all fixed bugs, including minor
ones).

Shortly said, I haven't checked if listing all fixed bugs between two
releases is what you're doing right now, Karolin (I know you're doing
cumulative RN) or if you "only" list those you find noticeable enough,
that was the point.

[Karolin Seeger-2]

Hi Luk,

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 07:50:09PM +0200, Luk Claes wrote:

> Hi Karolin
>
> On 06/22/2012 07:45 PM, Karolin Seeger wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 07:35:41AM +0200, Christian PERRIER wrote:
> >> Quoting Karolin Seeger ([hidden email]):
> >>
> >>> I don't think that this is neccessary, because
> >>> a) nobody is reading release notes and
> >>
> >> I strongly object to that..:-)
> >>
> >> Release Notes are the best helpers for me to decide if I can propose
> >> an update to our stable packages.
> >
> > that's what they are for. It's just my impression that administrators
> > often don't pay attention before updating/upgrading.
> >  
> >> Doing the same with Bugzilla is probably possible but is certainly a
> >> giant PITA. And this of course makes me understand why maintaining the
> >> release notes *is* a giant PITA for you, Karolin, of course..:-)
> >
> > Listing all open bugs in the release notes is not an option for me.
> > If anyone is willing to do that, please feel free.
> > That would take *a lot* of time and validation work.
> >  
> >>> b) that is what bugzilla is for.
> >>> I have no idea how long the release notes will be if I have to add each
> >>> existing bug. But if all of you agree, I will have to.
> >>
> >> At least, having the list of bugs fixed by a given release in the
> >> release notes would be helpful.
> >
> > I don't get what is missing right now.
> > As I have already pointed out at this year's SambaXP, the release notes
> > contain all older release note of the branch. So you can track down which
> > bug was fixed in which release. Please clarify what should be added.
>
> I don't think anything is missing for Christian's use case. Though it
> would be a shame if the info about the fixed bugs would go away. But
> that's not what others are implying I guess.

no, the fixed bugs won't go away, of course. The discussion is about adding a
list of known and unfixed bugs.
 
> What could be useful to add is a short list of very important bugs that
> were considered, but were in the end not waited for that particular release.

Please see the "Major enhancements in Samba 3.x.y include:" section
in the release notes (not available for security releases). Sometimes it's
very difficult for me to create this list, but it should be what you are
asking for. Do you agree?

Cheers,
Karolin

--
Samba http://www.samba.org
SerNet http://www.sernet.de
sambaXP http://www.sambaxp.org

[Karolin Seeger-2]

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 07:56:40PM +0200, Christian PERRIER wrote:

> Quoting Karolin Seeger ([hidden email]):
>
> > > > b) that is what bugzilla is for.
> > > > I have no idea how long the release notes will be if I have to add each
> > > > existing bug. But if all of you agree, I will have to.
> > >
> > > At least, having the list of bugs fixed by a given release in the
> > > release notes would be helpful.
> >
> > I don't get what is missing right now.
> > As I have already pointed out at this year's SambaXP, the release notes
> > contain all older release note of the branch. So you can track down which
> > bug was fixed in which release. Please clarify what should be added.
>
> My understanding was that this part of the discussion was about
> listing *all* bugs fixed in a said release (since the former one) or
> only some of them.

Currently, all fixed bugs are listed! Even minor ones (sometimes I do skip
minor doc fixes).

The discussion was about listing known and unfixed bugs.
 
> What I find helpful is having such a list of all Bugzilla bugs fixed
> by X.Y.Z release sicne X.Y.Z-1. Only bug numbers is enough,
> indeed. And details could be given for those that are "important"
> enough (which is the biggest part of the work, I guess as one needs to
> cook up a summary for each).

Exists: Bug number + short description.
 

> If release notes *already* do that, then fine and I don't need
> anything more.
>
> And, yes, cumulative release notes are also very helpful
> (particularly, indeed, if they list all fixed bugs, including minor
> ones).
>
> Shortly said, I haven't checked if listing all fixed bugs between two
> releases is what you're doing right now, Karolin (I know you're doing
> cumulative RN) or if you "only" list those you find noticeable enough,
> that was the point.

I am listing all.

Karolin

--
Samba http://www.samba.org
SerNet http://www.sernet.de
sambaXP http://www.sambaxp.org

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting Karolin Seeger ([hidden email]):

> no, the fixed bugs won't go away, of course. The discussion is about adding a
> list of known and unfixed bugs.

In such case, I have no such expectation, of course. As you say, this
is not humanly possible to do. Sorry for misunderstanding.

[Jeremy Allison]

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 07:50:09PM +0200, Luk Claes wrote:
>
> What could be useful to add is a short list of very important bugs that
> were considered, but were in the end not waited for that particular release.

That's actually quite a lot of work, and very subjective.

I personally think we're doing fine on release process,
and I'm very happy with the way Karolin does it.

Jeremy.

[Luk Claes]

On 06/22/2012 08:18 PM, Karolin Seeger wrote:

> Hi Luk,
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 07:50:09PM +0200, Luk Claes wrote:
>> Hi Karolin
>>
>> On 06/22/2012 07:45 PM, Karolin Seeger wrote:
>>> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 07:35:41AM +0200, Christian PERRIER wrote:
>>>> Quoting Karolin Seeger ([hidden email]):
>>>>
>>>>> I don't think that this is neccessary, because
>>>>> a) nobody is reading release notes and
>>>>
>>>> I strongly object to that..:-)
>>>>
>>>> Release Notes are the best helpers for me to decide if I can propose
>>>> an update to our stable packages.
>>>
>>> that's what they are for. It's just my impression that administrators
>>> often don't pay attention before updating/upgrading.
>>>  
>>>> Doing the same with Bugzilla is probably possible but is certainly a
>>>> giant PITA. And this of course makes me understand why maintaining the
>>>> release notes *is* a giant PITA for you, Karolin, of course..:-)
>>>
>>> Listing all open bugs in the release notes is not an option for me.
>>> If anyone is willing to do that, please feel free.
>>> That would take *a lot* of time and validation work.
>>>  
>>>>> b) that is what bugzilla is for.
>>>>> I have no idea how long the release notes will be if I have to add each
>>>>> existing bug. But if all of you agree, I will have to.
>>>>
>>>> At least, having the list of bugs fixed by a given release in the
>>>> release notes would be helpful.
>>>
>>> I don't get what is missing right now.
>>> As I have already pointed out at this year's SambaXP, the release notes
>>> contain all older release note of the branch. So you can track down which
>>> bug was fixed in which release. Please clarify what should be added.
>>
>> I don't think anything is missing for Christian's use case. Though it
>> would be a shame if the info about the fixed bugs would go away. But
>> that's not what others are implying I guess.
>
> no, the fixed bugs won't go away, of course. The discussion is about adding a
> list of known and unfixed bugs.
>  
>> What could be useful to add is a short list of very important bugs that
>> were considered, but were in the end not waited for that particular release.
>
> Please see the "Major enhancements in Samba 3.x.y include:" section
> in the release notes (not available for security releases). Sometimes it's
> very difficult for me to create this list, but it should be what you are
> asking for. Do you agree?

No, it's rather the 'Known issues' section which is also already covered :-)

Thanks for doing such a great job!

Cheers

Luk

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting Jeremy Allison ([hidden email]):

> I personally think we're doing fine on release process,
> and I'm very happy with the way Karolin does it.

And so am I, just in case it wouldn't have been crystal clear..!

/me bends towards Samba release manager...

[Karolin Seeger-2]

On Fr, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:04:44 +0200, Luk Claes wrote:

> On 06/22/2012 08:18 PM, Karolin Seeger wrote:
> > Hi Luk,
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 07:50:09PM +0200, Luk Claes wrote:
> >> Hi Karolin
> >>
> >> On 06/22/2012 07:45 PM, Karolin Seeger wrote:
> >>> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 07:35:41AM +0200, Christian PERRIER wrote:
> >>>> Quoting Karolin Seeger ([hidden email]):
> >>>>
> >>>>> I don't think that this is neccessary, because
> >>>>> a) nobody is reading release notes and
> >>>>
> >>>> I strongly object to that..:-)
> >>>>
> >>>> Release Notes are the best helpers for me to decide if I can propose
> >>>> an update to our stable packages.
> >>>
> >>> that's what they are for. It's just my impression that administrators
> >>> often don't pay attention before updating/upgrading.
> >>>  
> >>>> Doing the same with Bugzilla is probably possible but is certainly a
> >>>> giant PITA. And this of course makes me understand why maintaining the
> >>>> release notes *is* a giant PITA for you, Karolin, of course..:-)
> >>>
> >>> Listing all open bugs in the release notes is not an option for me.
> >>> If anyone is willing to do that, please feel free.
> >>> That would take *a lot* of time and validation work.
> >>>  
> >>>>> b) that is what bugzilla is for.
> >>>>> I have no idea how long the release notes will be if I have to add each
> >>>>> existing bug. But if all of you agree, I will have to.
> >>>>
> >>>> At least, having the list of bugs fixed by a given release in the
> >>>> release notes would be helpful.
> >>>
> >>> I don't get what is missing right now.
> >>> As I have already pointed out at this year's SambaXP, the release notes
> >>> contain all older release note of the branch. So you can track down which
> >>> bug was fixed in which release. Please clarify what should be added.
> >>
> >> I don't think anything is missing for Christian's use case. Though it
> >> would be a shame if the info about the fixed bugs would go away. But
> >> that's not what others are implying I guess.
> >
> > no, the fixed bugs won't go away, of course. The discussion is about adding a
> > list of known and unfixed bugs.
> >  
> >> What could be useful to add is a short list of very important bugs that
> >> were considered, but were in the end not waited for that particular release.
> >
> > Please see the "Major enhancements in Samba 3.x.y include:" section
> > in the release notes (not available for security releases). Sometimes it's
> > very difficult for me to create this list, but it should be what you are
> > asking for. Do you agree?
>
> No, it's rather the 'Known issues' section which is also already covered :-)

Sorry, I just noticed that I misread your proposal. Of course, we can add
a heads-up for very important known but unfixed issues.

Thanks for your comments!

Cheers,
Karolin

--
Samba http://www.samba.org
SerNet http://www.sernet.de
sambaXP http://www.sambaxp.org